128.68.15.3

Banned for DG Librarians? Really?

So I'm making this section because you said on the 30k tactics page that there are some communities where you'll be banned or mocked for using Librarians from the Death Guard, would you mind pointing out a few examples of this ridiculous behavior? Also the Death Guard so far have three Astartes characters, two of which are Psykers (making their Character/Psyker ratio the second highest, just behind the Word Bearers), even when somebody in that Legion had psychic abilities they still used them (it's not like Mortarion looked favourably on them if they didn't) and if we want to be fluffy, after the Horus Heresy started Mortarion began practicing Sorcery, so if you claimed that they were Sorcerers rather than Psykers the list would remain fluffy. -- Triacom (talk) 21:10, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, the one I play with does, for example. I'm just a regular member, not a community leader, but yeah, they banned one guy who wanted to play Emperor's Children before January 2014 FAQ with 2 Librarians as HQ. Also, no Imperial Fist, Iron Hand or World Eater player is allowed to take psykers due to narrative. There are no rules for Sorcerers in Heresy yet, and Mortarion embraced sorcery right before Siege of Terra - and Typhon had to kill all Navigators before getting a chance to manifest his abilities without being murdered by his Primach - a fate that should have awaited Morturg just for being a Psyker. - --128.68.15.3 22:12, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

That sounds a whole lot less fluffy, either the Librarians could be used before the Edict of Nikea, or they could be used as Sorcerers afterwards since Sorcerers and Psykers can have the same abilities (even if they have different ways of gaining them) and there actually are Sorcerer rules in 30k, it's called Burning Lore and it's used by the Word Bearers, not to mention Mortarion embraced sorcery a long while before the Siege of Terra, in fact he began embracing it right after his short fight with Jaghatai. With ridiculous restrictions like that do they ban anyone who wants to use Fulgrim with Fireblade? There are also Psykers who used their powers anyway when the Primarchs weren't watching them so there isn't really a fluffy reason to ban somebody for doing so (Typhon did this as an example), not to mention Mortarion didn't murder all Psykers simply on principle (otherwise Malcador would be dead, as Mortarion outright thought he was a Sorcerer), he just put them in fights where it would be extremely hard for them to not die (which is why Morturg was put with the Destroyers). In any case, I don't feel that the tactics pages should outright discourage that kind of behaviour especially when gaining Shrouding is risky to the point that I don't think it would be viable enough for a tourney list (there's differences between a fluffy list, a fun list, and a tourney list), and I also can't help but feel that if you're playing against assholes like that, it shouldn't be mentioned on the tactics page since I highly doubt those kinds of people are the majority. -- Triacom (talk) 22:30, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

There were legions with no Librarians from the beginning, Edict of Nikea was waaaay before Heresy happened, and while Burning Lore is warp sorcery, it is WB exclusive and those who use it are not called Sorcerers, they retain ranks in Legion. Mortarion tolerated mortal psykers because of there usefulness, but still had massive hateboner for them (Emperor included). Even when summoning Daemons and such he claimed it was not witchcraft and was done "just to better learn the enemy". I actually don't see why "restricting your army choices according to fluff" makes those people assholes. The main reason, IMHO, why Heresy is so popular today is that it lets a person tired of 40k cheesemongering play a fluffy and effective list, and DG Librarians just do not fit in --128.68.15.3 08:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh I'm aware that there were Legions with no Librarians, however I'm also aware that psychic abilities can manifest without warning, as was the case with Morturg. Yes Burning Lore is Word Bearers exclusive, I just used it as an example of sorcery having the same effects as psychic powers. I'm pretty sure Mortarion was aware that it was still a type of sorcery (it's been a bit since I've read that short story), however he also thought it was a science because it gave demonstrable and repeatable results and even though he hated Psykers he wouldn't just kill them on the spot, which is what I was getting at. Restricting your army choices according to fluff doesn't make you an asshole, if anything it's the exact opposite, restricting other people according to fluff however, is what makes you an asshole. As I said before though, if they really don't fit in, why are half of their named characters Psykers? -- Triacom (talk) 09:19, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no connections between number of special characters and Primarch's opinion about Psykers, but: one of them was sentenced to death for it and sent on Istvaan III, and the other is former Epistolary afraid of using his powers. There is a difference between "oh, you're a psyker, but please don't do it next time and repress your abilities" and "I told not to do it, destroyed Librarius and forbad any witchcraft, and you still use that powers", the latter would result in severe punishment (up to death). If I remember correctly, per old fluff Mortarion nearly killed Typhon for admitting practicing "witchcraft" and stop only because there were no other choice and no spare Psykers in the whole fleet. Also, do you really need a special rule that ensures you're playing fluffy? Personally I think it's not healthy attitude (on the other hand, fielding WB already makes me play fluffy with their HQ tax, so I may just be jealous) --128.68.15.3 16:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Mortarion, while he didn't exactly condone them wasn't nearly as hard on Psykers after the heresy started though, if he was he would've switched sides (or just went rogue) right around the time everyone else was going into Daemon worship. I certainly do get why he decided to kill Morturg, however I don't think it would be very hard at all to say that they're using sorcery to hide the mist clad infantry when you use Shrouding, especially if Mortarion is absent, Typhon is present, and also considering how Burning Lore also lets you take Telepathy (I didn't realize until just today, it's nice that they expanded it). Also in older fluff Mortarion was a lot friendlier in his actions to Psykers, he still hated them, however he saw them as excellent weapons (but not sons) and being a Psyker wouldn't prevent you from advancing through the ranks. He was also aware from the start that Typhon was a Psyker, which is why he didn't kill him on the spot when Typhon killed his navigators and suggested to use his abilities to get them to Terra. In the current lore (aka the Black Library books) I legitimately have no idea how they're going to make his fall to Chaos seem convincing. If it's that big of a deal, then I think there should be a special rule to ensure you're playing fluffy, the Black Templars had one to make sure they couldn't take Librarians, so why not the Death Guard if it's so important? At least with Word Bearers you do get to make all of them Psykers at least (not to mention Iron Arm with a tainted weapon is ridiculously good, and even Tainted Weapons on their own are pretty decent if you're up against Mechanicus) and you could also just take Erebus who'll pay all of your HQ tax on his own. -- Triacom (talk) 19:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Typhon killed navigators after talking with Mortarion and the latter agreed they are too dangerous to be left alive, but, once again, Primarch banned any and all witchcraft in his legion, no ifs or buts. Typhon was the only exception (and one Mortarion was unaware of, just like he didn't know former Epistolary worshipped Nurgle all that time). Modern Space Marine Codex is more like Codex:Ultrasmurfs. Black Templars rule is a relict of their own Codex that puts them out of modern meta entirely - I've yet to see any BT army winning a tournament where Eldar, Necrons or any top-tier army is present bearing maximum cheese. Word Bearers Psykers are costly, have no Force weapons and using TW hoping for Iron Arm is very unrelaible, not to say you're better off with power weapon or Paragon Blade, which still bring ID to marines with it (4+3+1). Erebus is not two people, WB must field 2 HQ, leaving only 1 slot for support officers. --128.68.15.3 10:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually Typhon was caught after he killed them, he didn't bother getting Mortarion's permission. Yes he banned it, however that's also why I said it makes sense if Mortarion was absent and Typhon was present, since regardless of what Mortarion ordered Typhon still practiced Sorcery. I also haven't seen Ultramarines winning those tournaments either, or Iron Hands, or Raven Guard, though given how Angels of Death just came out we might, who knows. I see now what you mean by the HQ tax, my mistake on that, however that doesn't change the fact that Word Bearers can get three HQ's that can effectively double as a Consul, not to mention the upgrade's not all that expensive either, to make those points back all you have to do is kill a single terminator. Considering you have both Smite and Psychic Shriek this should be really easy to do (you can also use their powers to kill three regular marines, or two veterans, which should not be hard at all with Psychic Shriek or Smite). -- Triacom (talk) 10:58, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Typhon and only Typhon did so, there were no other Librarians. About Ultramarines - I've seen Tigurius utterly destroying anything short of Screamerstar (even a Tyranid Flying Circus army!) with new Librarius formation, casting Invivsibility on 2+ with rerolls left and right. Also, I'd rather buy 1 Librarian instead of buying a Centurion or Chaplain upgrading them with Burning Lore - it's more expensive, has only 2 disciplines to choose from and is restricted to Ml1, not to mention I'm not allowed to roll on Daemonology with them. Remember old rule about eggs and buckets - and Praetor with Paragon Blade, Iron Halo and Burning Lore is a huge egg ready to be squished with 1 powerfist strike. BL is good, but not as much as others LA rules or equipment.--128.68.15.3 11:31, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Typhon is the only one we really know about. It's not like it would have been impossible for there to be other Librarians/Sorcerers similarly hiding their abilities and before you try and say that he's the only one because he's the only one we were told about, Forge World is very big on Your Dudes to the point that they've recommended you do whatever you want with the Horus Heresy stuff, one of the examples they give is having the Iron Hands present on Istvaan III or having Fulgrim remain loyal, if you want to say that there were others, then why not? Personally I'd much rather take the Chaplain with Burning Lore over a Librarian because you gain Zealot, which is really nice for 30k as losing combat and getting caught in a Sweeping Advance is how you normally lose most of your units and they prevent it, not to mention the two disciplines you get to choose from have awesome powers, it's not as if you're locked into ones that suck. I'm certainly not saying Burning Lore is fantastic (it's no Mantle of the Elder Drake) but I do think it's pretty good, if you manage to get Invisibility then you don't have to worry about getting hit by that power fist, if you don't manage to kill him before he reaches you with Psychic Shriek, and also if you're sending your Praetor in against a character with a power fist, then you're not using him right, you're much better off accepting the challenge with whatever random character you have on hand and then using your Praetor to kill as many normal marines as possible because then you don't need to worry about ID and you also don't need to worry about that many points being hung up trying (and possibly failing) to kill just one other Marine. -- Triacom (talk) 20:30, 16 June 2016 (UTC)