Talk:The Elder Scrolls

Biggus Berrus: Wwwwhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattttt?!?!?!?!? --Furore23 (talk) 22:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

As far as I understand ES cosmology, which is to say not at all, this seems legit and comprehensive. Cocaine's a helluva drug.--Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

This is pretty much bare-bones the cosmology of TES indeed. I could have gone on about the process of "decanting" in creation where all that exists is something new created from that which stands one step above it (the Primordial Gods Adu and Padomay were decanted from the Godhead, Aubris (the sum of Oblivion, Mundus and the Outer Realms) was decanted from Adu and Padomay, Creation was decanted from Aubris, Lorkhan and the Et'Ada were decanted from Creation, Nirn was decanted from Lorkhan and the Et'Ada and so on. There are also the Towers and their Stones: the tacks that hold Nirn onto the bulletin board of creation. And if all are removed (and there are only a few left!) it just... slides off. Reality falls, EVERYTHING ENDS. Did I tell you that this setting was likely made on a shitton of drugs? Biggus Berrus (talk) 07:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, now I'm on drugs too. Thanks, Kirkbride! --Furore23 (talk) 22:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as I recall, it's all but confirmed that 36 Sermons of Vivec was written while Kirkbride was drunk or high.--Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 22:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The ending of the words is COCAINE. Biggus Berrus (talk) 23:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Drunk, maybe. If I recall correctly, he wrote the sermons over several days, during which he basically locked himself in a room with only cigarettes and booze and a typewriter.--69.125.57.117 04:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Add a section for notable characters?

To help readers understand some of the finer points of the lore better. Like Pelinal Whitestrake being a elfkiller robot, Vivec, Divayth Fyr, and maybe each of the PCs

Changed the wording of that particular header to accompany other notable people: knock yourself out. I'd say also include the Tribunal (especially Vivec), the Emperor and the last Dwemer king. - Biggus Berrus (talk) 14:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Changed some of the setting info to reflect why Lorkhan wanted to create Nirn, and added sections for Vivec and Pelinal Whitestrake. Pls hel edit I cannot into funny writing

Numidium & Dwemer

This report is quite thorough and would indicate that the Dwemer did become the golden skin of Numidium. -86.50.110.226 02:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Numidium and the First Council

I'm pretty sure the entire part about the second Dragon Break is wrong. The First Council was an alliance between the Chimer and the Dwemer to fight off Nords that were invading and it broke up when the two sides went to war. It was the Dwemer that had Numidium, not the Chimer. And the dragon broke because the Dwemer tried to use the Heart to turn themselves into Gods, then ALMSIVI and Dagoth Ur went and did the exact same thing despite the Dwemer turning to dust. The Dragon Break happened because in TES, if you're a god, you always were and time has to rearrange itself to reflect this.

I could be wrong, I wanted an opinion from others since I haven't been keeping up with the latest TES lore as I could be lately, hence why I posted this instead of just rewriting the section. 173.66.0.164 20:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Skyrim Stormcloak Errors

Someone compared the Stormcloaks to National Socialists despite genocide never being a stated goal or step in anyway involved in the movement. Also the Aldmeri Dominion aren't really Nazis either and more of a fanatical doom cult given political form kind of like ISIS.

The Aldmeri predate (public notice of?) ISIS, wear robes hat look like trench coats, are racist, and have a secret police, among other things. Are they Nazis with pointy ears? Not exactly, but they give off a Nazi vibe. They act nothing like ISIS.--71.47.208.127 22:14, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I would say that they act like Nazis but have goals more similar to ISIS. They want to metaphysically remake the world where they are its rulers.

Because the Nazi Party did not want to rule anything?--71.47.208.127 22:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

They didn't want to literally metaphysically destroy earth.

Okay, so they aren't word-by-word a Nazi rip-off, but it's damn close. Dark uniforms, über-alf philosophy, extremist political party pulling around a nation in it's nose... It's essentially fantasy nazis.

Also, I wrote that part about the National Socialists: Very frequently I hear people go "vikings are awsome, vikings should be brought back", which is sorta true, but living in a real life state where people seriously believe this shit, you come to realise just how much of their homework the Bethesda Crew did when making the political status in Skyrim. It's a lot like some movements in Scandinavia now a days, who wants immigrants and everything non-national thrown out or killed (what counts as national is up to debate (read: whatever bigots decide)), and that's much what the Stormcloaks wants. Sure, the stated goal is freedom, but large parts of the Stormcloaks are racist fucknuggets who'd rather skullfuck every single elf in existence than get their collective heads out their arses and target the actual villian (i.e. Thalmor). That ties very well with some political parties in the north right now, like Swedish Demokrats, Danish People's Party and so forth. It's not "nazi social nationalism", but it's getting there.

If it's inaproppriate, just move it away from the main article and add it as a second opinion, but I'd be sad to see it removed. TheWiseDane (talk) 10:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

On the subject of the Thalmor

I get that some people have a hate-boner for the Empire in Skyrim, however that section is written like shit right now. If you want to bring up how the Thalmor are manipulating the Empire (and also how they're manipulating the Nords) then make it a separate section instead of a rant that goes on for so long that you forget what the original point the rant splits apart was. -- Triacom (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• Rants are bad and they should feel bad. It's not just that, though. Have you followed the tumbrl link present? Whether it self-promotion or just promotion (and not the good kind) is, more or less, irrelevant. What is relevant, that the page maintained an air of objectivity and didn't deliberately (or not, but c'mon...) misinform the reader; cause I also can rant about Stormcloaks (and with actual arguments, too), if that what's you want. For example, should I note that Bethesda actually cut some content (text and audio files) at the last moment so that Ulfric and his marry band didn't look straight up in the wrong, if not outright evil? You want that kind of 'arguments' spring up on /tg/, of all places? Bit of a 'wrong place, wrong time' case, no? Smth has to be done to the page, though. I'm not asking anyone to outright clean it all up (Azura knows - it needs it and I don't think I'm up to it (yes, I tried)), but it would be nice to see some edits by someone other than Ludwig XIV, apparently.

If we're talking about the plot anyway then there's no reason to avoid bringing up what Bethesda cut, otherwise it's just a double standard where you can badmouth the Imperials, but can't badmouth the Stormcloaks even though they're objectively worse in pretty much every way. -- Triacom (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• • • My point exactly.

Do not be alarmed by the big red letters next to the edit summary

After going through this, I've gotten rid of all but the most important information pertaining to the setting. Most of what was on the page was more or less irrelevant to the actual stuff /tg/ cares about, and the UESP link I added is more than adequate to replace it. --Newerfag (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Completely nuking the Elder Scrolls page

Look, I understand that the page was a bit lengthy and could use some cleaning up, but this is way too far. Justifying deleting that much content by saying "only keeping what /tg/ is actually interested in" is nonsense. There is no Council of Neckbeards to consult, our interests are wide and varied. A central part of what makes traditional gaming fun is exploring fantastic worlds, and TES is a good example of world building. Also, the amount that was removed from the page completely kills it. Before it was a fun and interesting read that someone could come back to time and time again, but now it's so dull and basic that it might as well say "Yea it's a video game setting, go here if you wanna know more". I understand that too many bad or obnoxious memes can turn a page into trash, but there is still value in the character and life of any article on here. That's what separates 1d4chan from other wikis - if people just want the hard, basic facts then they'd go to Lexicanum or some other clear cut wiki site. Finally, at the very least, what was the now removed content hurting? Was it taking away from the site as a whole? I just don't see the justification behind these changes. Maybe if said some of the content was merely replaced by more succinct language that'd be different, but as it is now the whole page might as well be deleted. I want to undo these changes, but I'm new to actually doing anything like this beyond a few grammar edits here and there, though I've been reading on here for a long time. I'll let this sit for a few weeks for a response I guess?

Isn't keeping quality work even if it isn't that revelant to /tg/ a general rule here? I know the page was long but holy fuck it's just bare bones now, and former version was a lot better than that. We should certainly restore it back.

--Zamnil Mattockwaz (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it "quality". It was prone to long rambling tangents that would only make sense to those who already knew a lot about the lore. Besides, who would come here to learn about TES instead of the wiki specifically about TES? In any case, the setting itself has never officially been adapted into an RPG form, making it of secondary relevance at best. We are not a wiki about absolutely everything vaguely related to /tg/, nor should we try to be. Newerfag (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

In regards to the "who would come here to learn about TES" comment, I personally stumbled upon it by clicking "random page". I'm sure that I'm not the only one who utilizes that function because, again, this isn't really a wiki that provides solely bare bones factual information. There's a lot of enjoyment to be had by just visiting random pages and stumbling upon hidden gems such as this. As for the "never officially been adapted into an RPG form", there is Scrollhammer. It's a work in progress, sure, but it still shows that there's interest in the setting overall. As for the "we are not a wiki about absolutely everything vaguely related to /tg/", I think I understand where you're coming from. It would be shitty if this wiki became bloated with vaguely /tg/ related stuff, and it's good to watch out for that, however I don't think the Elder Scrolls article was doing any harm. It was confined to one page and there's a /tg/ related interest in it as shown by Scrollhammer. Again, if this wiki is to be dry, clear cut, and very particular on what content is on here, then why would anyone come here instead of Lexicanum? Why would things such as the Derp page exist? Finally, to the "long rambling tangents that would only make sense to those who already knew a lot about the lore" I've directed dozens of people to this page to learn about the lore, and they've found it very informative and interesting without having much prior knowledge at all. I still don't see any valid reason for the out-right deletion of all that content.

--Faceless (talk) 09:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

A compromise has been reached! Praise be! --Faceless (talk) 18:07, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

"Stuff Only /tg/ Cares About?"

Maybe replace that with "Stuff I don't care about"? Because the "autism" is what makes the setting as great as it is, and is an actual well-written description of the setting. If you want to link to UESP for everything, why don't you replace every 40k article with a link to the Lexicanum? Not to mention, there's been a weekly Elder Scrolls lore discussion thread on /tg/ for years. Calling TES not part of /tg/ not only proves ignorance of what actually goes on on /tg/, it's plain Stop-liking-what-I-don't-like-ism. --FenaTiX (talk) 17:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Current /tg/ is infested by /v/. Also that article give you jack shit for making a tes ttrpg, "zero-sum", "CHIM" and whatnot aren't relevant for a DM.

I've put it under a spoiler. Maybe that'd satisfy the autism. For people who don't care, it's not there. For people who do, it's there. --FenaTiX (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Hiding it doesn't make it less irrelevant. If people want to know about pseudo-philosophical nonsense in a video game, they can look at the wiki actually meant for said game- the weekly thread doesn't make it relevant, it makes it cancerous. A decision was already made, now get over it and work with the community instead of trying to boss it around. --Newerfag (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Funny how you complain on the Transformers page about how it "should make it more relevant to /tg/ for representation" yet here you call the fact it has been on /tg/ for years, both discussed in their general and referenced outside of it "cancerous". This is not about what /tg/ cares about, this is what you want. A single look above proves that the only person complaining has been you. Literally everyone else above since it got cleaned is disapproving against it. "A decision was already made" by you, "now get over it and work with thr community instead of trying to boss it around." read that last fucking part, and apply it to yourself. Either that, or start your own wiki to play Stalin in.--FenaTiX (talk) 04:02, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Funnier still how nobody else had a problem with that for months and that I wasn't even the first one to suggest it be cleaned. Who the fuck are you to tell a community you've spent less than three days in how to run themselves, some kind of delusional Che Guevara crusading to save the poor oppressed /TES/fags who couldn't care less about this place? If it's so relevant to /tg/, why the bloody hell does it say so little about its actual /tg/ connections? If it can't explain why /tg/ cares in more than a couple short sentences at the introduction, then its relevance clearly isn't as great as it seems. I also note that the RPGs mentioned in said introduction are all practically dead at this point. That doesn't sound like something /tg/ is interested in unless interest means leaving a system "under development" untouched for nearly a year.

And unlike you, I actually took the time to make myself useful to the wiki instead of immediately barging in and demanding that everyone kiss my ass for no good reason. --Newerfag (talk) 04:23, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

"B-But nobody did something about it, s-so that makes it okay." No, it fucking doesn't. Who's to say those people up there even still have internet access or are alive? Personally, I've been on a navy ship for 6 fucking months until two weeks ago and didn't have time to go online outside a skype call home every few days. Does that make it okay for someone to have bulldozed my house because I wasn't there to do anything about it? Someone suggesting a cleanup is different from just plain purging everything. They disagreed and actually gave reasons, and gave their reasons. You plainly brushed those aside. I'm guessing the only reason they didn't "do something about it", is because they didn't want to set off this fucking edit war. And that doesn't make it okay for you to just do whatever you consider "not relevant" even though everyone on this discussion page actually disagreed with you.

"B-But I've been here for longer and we've been doing this the way!" Ah, right. That's why it's okay for Muslims to rape underage children, because they've been there and doing it since Muhammad's time. Your logic doesn't hold up you autist. This isn't about "muh rights", this is about you not giving a shit about other's opinions. This wasn't even a group decision, this was you purging everything that you don't consider /tg/ enough, even though it has been part of /tg/ for years? Only after <arbitrary timeframe>? Boards change, and there's overlap. If you can't accept that, let's stretch your logic all the way and just purge every page not-Warhammer/DND and leave a "This exists, go to their wiki!", considering /tg/ was created to keep the Warhammer and DND threads out of /b/. Just because you've been contributing for a while doesn't mean you're always well or right, and I haven't looked at your edit history because honestly I don't even care, I don't care about you specifically, I care about this stupidity of "I don't care about it so it isn't /tg/ enough" you're trying to "argue".

"B-But they don't care about us?" Says fucking who? You? Have you actually ever been in a TES thread? Have you ever thought of, maybe, actually, I dunno, asking them? When I was still active before serving I referred them to 1d4chan.org all the time as it had a clear, non-convoluted, and well-written article on some of the more bullshitty aspects of the lore.

"If it's so relevant to /tg/, why the bloody hell does it say so little about its actual /tg/ connections?" Yeah mang, let's not propose ways or ideas to actually improve the article, nah, just purge the thread and go "buh no links to akshual /tg/!11!1!11oone". And it's not even correct, because there's a /tg/-made sys- "I also note that the RPGs mentioned in said introduction are all practically dead at this point. That doesn't sound like something /tg/ is interested in unless interest means leaving a system "under development" untouched for nearly a year." Oh, right, because being no longer developed means it can no longer exist, be played, or ever be relevant to /tg/ again. Wow you really got me there bruv. It's not like the systems were playable and got played, no sir! There never were threads on it, no sir! It's not longer active now, so it doesn't deserve a page on your wiki!

But good job actually dodging any argument. Instead you're to retreat into calling names and b-b-but-muh-time-here and b-b-but-dey-din-do-nuffin-bout-it and pretend I'm some kind of extremist revolutionary that wants your almight throne, oh Autokrator: it might be time you took a fucking break from the internet, fucking spastic, and learn how to handle criticism.

Just because you've been here for longer doesn't mean you're right about everything.--FenaTiX (talk) 07:08, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

"I've been here longer then you, so my opinion matters more!"... get over yourself, Newerfag. I'm one of those here who actually appreciates 1d4chan's take on the whole Elder Scrolls mythos because it doesn't buy into the 'we should make it as obscure as possible' and actually talks shit about the weirder and stupider aspects of it. Hiding the mythos so that only people who care about reading it and leaving the short summary visible was a good compromise between your position and FenaTiX's position. --37.153.209.145 06:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Look at all those ad hominems, goddamn. Did I make edits you disagree with or did I eat your babies?

I don't see you proposing ways to improve the article, and I have no patience to fix a lost cause where people revel in "lore" that only makes sense with copious quantities of hallucinogenic drugs. But fine, have the self-indulgent nonsensical wank there if you absolutely must. Now do yourselves a favor and demonstrate the /tg/ links within the actual article for a change.--Newerfag (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Low key y'all, I can add back in and edit the metaphysical shit, but just put it under a spoiler tab. Obviously, I won't do it unless the folks who really care about this article are into it, but that would be a simple solution - clean up space and still include all relevant information.

Fuck yes

Thank fuck some magnificent bastard added back the mindfuck nonsense jibberish segment,may Molag Bal spare your cornhole his gaze.

Theories

I doubt anyone will read this, but I propose that CHIM is in fact the same as mantling the Godhead and the Dream. You see "I" (your own self or identity) in the dream wheel, which is of course the Dream the Godhead manifests as. That is, you're extremely similar to the Wheel. What happens in TES when a mortal becomes extremely similar to anything that manifests as an Ancestor Spirit? Mantling. CHIM could therefor be the power of having mantled the Dream, of being able to alter the Dream in some ways. Zero-sum: If you look at the Wheel without seeing "I", your own lesser "I" loses sight of itself and disappears. Now you might say, "wouldn't this make CHIM the same as omnipotency, since the Dream is everything"? Consider that the Godhead is flawed, hurt, and so is the Dream itself, in the struggle between Stasis and Change. Take the fan favourite CHIM CHIM CHERUB, Vivec: he embodies this division and conflict. Even his chromatically challenged dual skin colours drives that home. And if he's imperfect and divided like the Godhead, then he has the same limitations: he doesn't know how to fix himself or the Dream or the Godhead. That's the limit of CHIM: it can't fix things on a higher or conceptual level, because the CHIM "user" suffers from the same issues. Only Amaranth can truly, finally fix things. Another example is when the Akaviri invaded Morrowind once. What did Vivec do? Did he directly CHIM the invaders' hearts into stopping? No, he taught everything how to Breathe Water, and then he filled the continent with water, so the Akaviri drowned. Technically, he didn't alter anything that represented a conceptual Dream constant, he just taught a little magic and turned air into water. Since the Akaviri embody a concept of the Dream, their existence is most likely outside the power of CHIM to affect. That's why Vivec is a "liar," because he manipulates unimportant things within the Dream through CHIM, without touching the essences of the Dream itself. He plays around with loopholes, basically. This interpretation also addresses why Vivec is still around after dying, unlike his fellow Tribunal: as long as he keeps seeing "I" in the Wheel, his individual essence remains part of the Dream, even if his "Living God" manifestation is gone.

In the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, Book Three, Mankar Camoran says that the Tower "touches all the the mantles of Heaven... This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh...," which kinda confirms that the Endeaver/Mantling is a part of the process of CHIM; however, CHIM isn't flawed, the referenced to the CS in the 36 Lessons make it clear that CHIM is all-powerful in universe and aware of the fictional setting of the universe itself. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2019 (UTC) edit: not that any of it matters anyway since it's clear in-game that everything metaphysically, or, more specifically Kirkbridian, in-game or OOG, doesn't physically exist, either through convoluted canon or unreliable narrator (some batshit insane Indoril Priest, talking to Daedra makes you, surprise, crazy, etc).

CHIM must have some limitations, otherwise Vivec could simply have removed Dagoth Ur from existence and made the Akaviri invaders cease to exist. Perhaps CHIM can't transcend or overwrite the Godhead's state of mind, which manifests in the fictional Dream, which Vivec, Dagoth Ur and the Akaviri were all part of, CHIM or not. The Godhead has not yet Dreamt a solution to its issues, so the embodiment and Mantler of the Dream, the user of CHIM, doesn't know or embody the solution either. However, it still embodies the Godhead's DESIRE to find a solution, which is why it consciously manipulates the Dream towards a setting and future in it might find a solution, and away from dead ends or premature resets, without directly influencing the Dream aspects it must embody in order to keep Mantling the Dream, since the Mantler must remain the same as what it Mantles. You can't Mantle Sheogorath and then behave fundamentally different than Sheogorath would, for example.