Talk:Knights Inductor

A few edits

I've added a little material to the Null Knights, Gene-Seed, and Organization sections. More on Null Knights, the fact that the gene is held in three different caches, and the Macharius Strategem (from crunch to fluff), respectively. Feel free to edit them, and I did not tamper with what was already there, just merely added on to them. Remoon101 13:29, 5 April 2012 (BST)

Null Knights

Added a little something to that section; I hope you don't mind. The threat of the Null Knights is great; if they managed to infiltrate Holy Terra they might conceivably be able to tamper/dampen or even nullify the Astronomicon. Also, fluff note, I did mention that it was elements of 6th Company that was tasked with hunting them down (I originally wrote the whole Company as being involved but that might've been a little too much). Could be an idea for some writefaggotry, who knows?

Actually, I've been thinking a lot about the Null Knights, what with the recent Necron Codex. My idea is that the Pariah gene is linked to a C'tan which was an extremely powerful anti-psyker; maybe it attempted to seed anti-psychic species, like the Old Ones created species with psychic powers, or maybe its shards somehow "infected" the human genome (actually, that gives me a nifty idea: maybe this C'tan's shards are empowering to Blanks).

In any case, people with this gene are sought out by certain Necrons, like Crypteks and Lords who want to use their anti-psyker powers against the hated children of the Old Ones, or Dynasties which have fallen under the sway of the shards of this C'tan (possible name: "The Screaming Void," or maybe just the Void Dragon, given the emphasis on SCIENCE! over magic, and that he's the one that made the anti-Warp pylons in the first place, I think) -- I'm working on a Necron character who fits this mold. This will require some clean-up of the Null Knights section, and since finals are coming soon for me, it will have to wait a while before I write it out.

An end-game goal of destroying the Astronomican is a cool idea, even if it's like the Black Crusades (it'll never succeed, because status quo); I feel like an attack on a Craftworld or Exodite World is much more likely to bear fruit (which does give me an idea for a story -- basically, the Necrons attack Lida in the midst of the turmoil of Damnos's Crusade). --Not LongPoster Again 00:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Squad Loaning

The Knights Inductor are always learning, adapting, and creating a condition of optimal tactical efficiency. Would it be too much to say that they "loaned" squads to other Chapters and Imperial military organizations? Said squads would serve with said benefactor (who gains extra help in battle) for a decade or two, and come back to the Apriori sector to report on what they've learned in their loan service? It's an idea that popped into my mind remembering the Mentors Legion. "The basic rationale behind squad loaning is that the Mentors are able to extract the maximum amount of information regarding the fighting prowess and techniques of just about any Imperial military organisation. 'Loaned' squads returning to chapter HQ bring with them an invaluable record which is without parallel in the galaxy. The chapters and armies to whom these squads are sent benefit from having these superior warriors join them for a campaign or battle. An extra benefit to the Mentors is that they are also able to claim and maintain an honourable record of real combat experience." It could be plausible that the Knights Inductor would pick up such a handy practice and have elements from a few Companies do so. Remoon101 21:22, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Over winter break, I'm going to work on editing the stories and such that I've written, and one point of revision is that I'm going to make it clear that the Knights (and Apriori) haven't been sitting around in the 500 or so years since travel to the Imperium became possible again. In the prologue to Return of the Reasonable Marines, Captain Darren is said to have been relieved of pacifying "Norton's World," which is not in the Aprior Sector; I'm hoping to expand on this and other things they've been getting up to. Events that I'm hoping to cover in more detail: Apriori IG Regiments and KI 2nd and 4th Companies deal with the Tau (Damocles and Zeist Campaigns), 1st Company hunts down the Dark Eldar, Apriori IG Regiments realize just how messed up the galaxy is...

Anyway, yes, sending single squads (using a Rapid Strike Vessel, or having them attached to an outbound IG Regiment and subsequently finding their own way) is a good idea -- that fits the Third Company, since their Captain is Master of the Deal, and possibly one or more of the Reserve Companies. I'm sure that Internal Security and the Admech have operatives attached to outbound forces as well; all the better to understand the enemies (and allies, and forces) of Mankind and other peoples' technologies, respectively. --Not LongPoster Again 06:52, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The Company Organization

Good evening, my fellow nerds. I would like to ask a simple question about the makeup of each company of the Knights Inductor. You make it plain that every squad is made of twenty-four marines for maximum combat flexibility. Going by the Codex Astartes, if you have ten squads of twenty-four men in ten companies, you have about 2400 Marines in your Chapter at the least. But the Company strength is listed as somewhere near 3000 on the main page. Was it your intention to have ten squads to a company? If you had twelve squads to a company, you would have a minimum Chapter strength of 2880 Marines. Thank you for reading this and I hope to hear from you soon.

There's a good article on Bolter and Chainsword called "The Thousand Marine Myth" which adds up all the numbers and concludes that a Codex Space Marine Chapter at full strength has between 1400 and 1600 Marines (including command squads, champions, apothecaries, chaplains, techmarines, vehicle crews, and other specialists). Presumably, the same is true of the Knights -- 2400 Marines in the battle squads (Tactical, Assault, etc.), plus several hundred command, specialist, and support personnel, which comes up to around 3000.

I did kick around the idea of having twelve squads per Company, and didn't (and don't) feel too strongly either way on the matter. It's a divergence from the Codex, though not unprecedented (the Salamanders do this, and it's not unreasonable to suppose that the Knights would take after the original Reasonable Marines). What do you think?

Also, for future reference, you should "sign" your messages with a --~~~~ at the end -- it makes a signature with the time of posting and your username, like this: --Not LongPoster Again 06:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for you time and answers, Not LongPoster.--Orion Nexus 14:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

As some one who's actually trying to put a Knight Inductor force together, I'd have to say 24 is a really unwieldy number to proxy with given that marines come in groups of five. This rules out the easy choice of one tac, one assault, and half squad of devastators. I doubt I'd stick to hard to the squad number in any case, but 25 would be a much, much more manageable number to work within a standard dex. dragonkingofthestars 09:55, 15 june 2013 (UTC)

Some lighter stuff

Good evening elegan/tg/uardsmens, I would submit the following song to be considered for a theme song of the Knights Inductor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBJSei0XV0 130.166.220.254 03:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Argument over the continued existence of the Knights Inductor on this wiki

Why is the main page gone? --Orion Nexus (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it has anything to do with that, but Not LongPoster and a whole bunch of other people have decided that the Knights Inductor need a total rewrite- they've turned into Mary Sues, plain and simple. The blanking might just be vandalism, but I suppose it's understandable given the current sentiment.--Newerfag (talk) 00:08, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about "total" rewrite, but certainly there are a bunch of things that will change if/when I get around to it. The blanking was probably vandalism. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 00:59, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the people on the thread strongly suggested to just drop the Tau, Tyranids, and SoBs. The Tau are in a completely different sector anyway and there's no reason to have every faction in Aprior at once. Having some Ecclesiarchy officials go at each others throats is fine, but the Sisters simply do not suffer any dissent- if you're a heretic, you are to be killed on sight, with no exceptions. And since having the KI kill off Sisters of Battle for any reason is not good for the image you're aiming for, I agree with the idea of simply removing them from Aprior. (The quote in question said "The RMs are xeno loving atheists. SoBs are psychotic gun nuns who love fire a little too much. They should get along about as well as nitroglycerine and Michael J. Fox.") Same with the Tyranids- you can't grant sentience to something that is physically incapable of possessing it, and if the Tyranids consumed the pariah gene they'd just go brain-dead, which would make them useless to the Hive Mind. Without their connection to the Hive Mind, they simply cannot survive. I don't like to be bossy about this, but you're going to need to accommodate the canon much better than it is now if you want to get rid of the "Mary Sue" reputation the KI developed- the best way to do that is to make it clear that their methods are imperfect- they have to suffer defeat every so often, and sometimes quite badly indeed. Even the Ultrasmurfs got their asses handed to them during the First Tyrannic War, after all.--Newerfag (talk) 01:14, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Meh, I'm indifferent. If the sector is rewritten I'll change the tech descriptions and their origins to make sure they keep their goodies Remoon101 (talk) 02:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I personally think it's a terrible idea all around. Let things lie, dredging it up will only end in more hate

That's a little extreme, but for the moment if you do revise the KI, keep it on the 1d4chan page and don't draw attention to it on /tg/ itself. There's a lot of people on there who won't allow you to give it a second chance, regardless of any revisions.--Newerfag (talk) 03:53, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the best thing would be to remove most of the special gear and whatnot. Instead of PROGRESS! Marines, make them Space Marines who actually use sensible tactics. Maybe give them a few new wargear options, but mostly I think it should be different organization, with access to more already-existing technology (Leman Russ tanks, for example). As far as new technology goes, maybe it'd be better to give them access to a few Heresy-era goodies, like rotary cannons, Ceres Assault Cannons, etc. --Bjorn (talk) 04:02, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was one of the main objections- giving a Chapter a whole bunch of special gear nobody else has with no drawbacks whatsoever just screams "Mary Sue". And their portrayal as knowing exactly what each faction wants at any given time doesn't help. They're supposed to be the Reasonable Marines, not the Omniscient Marines.--Newerfag (talk) 04:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

LOOK LOOK LOOK. The reason they even have a Tau guy helping and divulging some Tau tech in the first place is not because they are right next to the Tau empire all happy and like. The Aprior Sector sent out a small armed forces battle detachment (from 3rd Company) to the Damocles crusade where they were one of the many groups sent there to aid the Ultramarines. That's where they stumbled upon the Tau re-education camp and got all those Fire Warriors and Earth caste scientists before bringing them back to the Aprior Sector. Anyway, that was my little shpeal because someone previously said that the Tau being present in the Aprior Sector didn't make sense.

The Aprior sector's situation was particularly unique and analogous to the Tau Empire's development. 1300 years of almost complete isolation and peace is what allowed them to make those advances, alongside the progessive mindset of the Knights Inductor and the rather slow realization of the tech adepts that if they didn't progress, their losses would pile higher and higher until there is no Imperium left. AND SCREW CODEX ASTARTES. They increased their squad sizes and moved around organization to suit the changing times and they realized that 24 men to a squad was a lot more versatile to a 10 man squad. They split up 3rd Company into detachments to increase intelligence gathering. The Scout company is almost the size of three other companies because their training is slower than most other Chapters.

It doesn't make all that much sense to give them so many Heresy-era goodies because they are a 21st founding Chapter, not a 1st founding. So naturally they would have very little access to really wargear and vehicles like that. Plus the fact they technically descended from the Angry Marines who would've destroyed their Heresy-era gear anyway leaving none for a successor.

You want to hear some drawbacks of the technology they created? An Aprior Research Workshop was making headway into gravitic space-time distortion tech that would theoretically allowed a weapon of theirs to have an -infinite- charge up time before firing that would've absolutely wrecked the weapon and most of everything looking at it. They got raided by a cabal of Necron Crypteks who got word of what they were doing, destroyed everything there and taking the research data for themselves (or perhaps destroying it so humans can't have it). There's a reason why they don't dare touch Warp technology, another Workshop basically turned into a permanent mini Eye of Terror which engulfed the entire system that it lay in on the outskirts of the Aprior Sector as a result of an experiment gone horribly wrong. There's more but the point I'm trying to get across is that they have this tech due to: 1300 years of trial and error in relative peace. With plenty of error. Remoon101 (talk) 14:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks like they're not too keen on the rewrite over on /tg/.

Understatement of the century. They're probably right- here's a quote from the people who got the RMs started:

"Guy who did a lot of the original Reasonable Marine (and what few pieces of art of them exists) article but nothing to do with the KI here: never wanted any of that bullshit about purified daemons, Nids, etc.

If anything their insistence on reason, while appealing to us and allude to the (failing) USA occupation in the Middle East, was supposed to be a major hindrance that left them mostly on their own. They were *supposed* to have forfeited the firepower and ferocity that kept most Imperial forces strong in favor of far more risky approaches that could just as easily fuck them over as help them.

None of this "They have the most marines and initiates ever" stuff.

Knights Inductor, as much as I wanted to like the idea that other people had took my original idea further, is largely bland.

And for that I'm sorry."

I think it's clear that the whole thing should do itself a favor and stay dead. There's too much circlejerking here for anyone to look at it objectively and make the big changes that MUST be made if isn't going to be laughed off of the board. The KI writefaggotry is dead- let them rest in peace. If you must do more of it, keep it to 1d4chan and don't draw any attention to it.--Newerfag (talk) 05:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Even if you just keep it to 1d4chan, someone will still likely dredge it up to mock the KI. Just a fair warning.

All the more reason to let it die. It used to be decent writefaggotry back in the day, but now it's all washed up in the worst possible way. Perhaps it would be best if all the writefags involved with it quietly cut all ties with it to minimize any potential mockery: ceasing all work on the related Codexes, deleting the pages involved with it, that sort of thing. It might sound extreme, (and it probably is), but otherwise your reputations will be tainted simply by association. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the original LongPoster showed up to denounce what the KI have become now.--Newerfag (talk) 06:02, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

"Having some Ecclesiarchy officials go at each others throats is fine, but the Sisters simply do not suffer any dissent- if you're a heretic, you are to be killed on sight, with no exceptions. And since having the KI kill off Sisters of Battle for any reason is not good for the image you're aiming for, I agree with the idea of simply removing them from Aprior. (The quote in question said "The RMs are xeno loving atheists. SoBs are psychotic gun nuns who love fire a little too much. They should get along about as well as nitroglycerine and Michael J. Fox.")"

I'm guessing you haven't read either of the Sisters of Battle novels. The Sisters of Battle are the regulating force for the Ecclesiarchy, including fallen ecclesiarchs and anyone who misuses faith in the Emperor. Wherever there is enough people, there's usually a shrine world and a detachment of whatever order is closest on hand. Hell if you want a re-write there's a good place to start, but don't write out a faction that should be there, just because some fa/tg/uys want to fap to their version of the Sisters of Battle.Voidsman (talk) 06:09, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

"but don't write out a faction that should be there, just because some fa/tg/uys want to fap to their version of the Sisters of Battle" That's a bit of an ironic statement to use in the defense of the KIs, given that they utterly genocide Sisters of Battle wholesale and replace them with their own incredibly masturbatory knockoff SoBs. To be honest, by the time you have made ATHEIST Sisters of Battle, you have already essentially written SoBs out of the narrative, since atheist SoBs will act nothing like the real deal.

It's circlejerking like this that makes a rewrite a terrible idea. Need I remind you that the Reasonable Marines in their first incarnation were declared Excommunicate Traitoris due to their faithlessness?--128.164.70.91 06:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to take a moment to note that all the people here currently defending the KI have been intimately involved in their creation and have essentially refused to take any outside criticism into acoount when writing things up. This is exactly the same thing that happened with the Harem Knights- the core group of writers just becomes one big echo chamber which blinds them to flaws that are blatantly obvious to everyone else. And it'll just end the same way when the KI becomes the laughingstock of /tg/. Justify away the flaws as much as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the flaws are still there for everyone to see. Nobody likes to be told that their work has no redeeming value, but sometimes the truth hurts.--Newerfag (talk) 06:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I just feel the need to point out that you guys kinda already are the laughingstock of /tg/. The fact that people regularly group you in with the Harem Knights should have clued you in to just how low /tg/'s opinion of the KI is.

Alright then, what are the substantive flaws that need to be addressed? From what has been said the Order of Reason's Light needs to go, which is pretty much the entire point of my user page. The Tyranid thing is a mess, as is Ardi. So then why not a re-write, and if you have suggestions, approach the people who have been writing it, and tell them it doesn't work and why. I'd be down to re-write the Order of Reason's Light, but to write them out entirely seems irrational for the reason said above, if there's the ecclesiarchy then there's usually Sisters of Battle. As for the tyranid thing Notlongposter said he'd get to it, and if you read his talk page he sounds reluctant, but he'll probably change it as it's the one thing that is obvious that it doesn't work.Voidsman (talk) 07:13, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

A better question is "What AREN'T the flaws", but I'll try to be as brief as I can. First, scrap the technological advantages. They should know no more about how a lasgun or a bolter works than any of us do. The best they can manage is to try and reverse-engineer things, and even that should have limited success. Second, place them in situations where their tactics are clearly not going to work and have them lose, and badly so. 40K is an unreasonable world, after all. Third, they have to stop the metagaming- no automatically knowing what the other factions want and why without taking a lot of time to learn it first. As an arbitrary example, that first meeting with the Exodites should not have nearly gone as well as it should have- at best, it would have ended in a stalemate and at worst the utter destruction of one side or the other due to a faux pas as simple as the mispronounciation of a single syllable. Finally, lose the "all-blanks" horseshit- it stinks of "special snowflake chapter" and makes them nearly immune to the biggest threat that any other Space Marine chapter is likely to encounter. (And on a similar note, cut the references to their Primarch- hardly anyone has even heard of the Lost Primarch Quest so nobody will care about the reference being removed. Just say that the chapter doesn't know who their Primarch is.) As for the SoB, just say that they're unwilling to challenge the KI directly just yet- when the Inquisition shows up, then they'll take the time to strike. The Order of Reason's Light still has to be written out- it's idiotic as well as selfish to claim that having to redo your user page is a good reason to allow what's considered to be one of the biggest mistakes in the writefaggotry to remain. I've had a bare-bones userpage this whole time and I've done just fine.--Newerfag (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay that's something I can work with. I think you're overstating certain things, in particular only the silencers are supposed to be blanks every other astartes in the KI is simply more aware of the warp because they've felt the absence of it at some point and so have a better intuitive feel for the difference between witchcraft and say hypnotherapy or holographic illusions. To be fair, I'm pretty much the point person on the Order of Reason's Light, so I'll make some tweaks when I have the time. If what you're saying is true then a name change in exchange for allowing to continue otherwise unhindered seems like a small price to pay. Hell, I'll even include your idea of the Order going rogue at some point, though given that there's a long stretch of time in between the defeat at the hands of the Knights Inductor and the arrival of Damnos the Inquisitor Lord it's logical to assume not all of the sisters are going to side with Damnos. If you want a satisfying conclusion, there, you have the Order largely wiping itself out in an internal schism and all that's left is maybe the order Dialogous or Hospitaller, with whoever survives the battle going to one of the more mainstream orders militant. That way you get never having to see reasonable Sisters of Battle again and I don't have to repaint my army, delete most of my user page, a tumblr I set up a year ago, and Emperor only knows what else. Everything else is territory that isn't mine, so you'll have to talk to them, but I deliberately kept the sisters as low-tech as possible because that's who the sisters are, if they could get away with it they'd stick to chainswords. Finally if it is "what's considered to be one of the biggest mistakes in the writefaggotry" then why hasn't anyone taken it up with me yet? I left a section up on my user talk page explicitly for feedback. All I got was some random person complaining about a special rule I haven't fully created yet.Voidsman (talk) 17:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't like to speak on /tg/'s behalf, because it is a community, but consensus seems to overwhelmingly be that the Knight Inductors are shit. The entire thing reeks of suism and reads like some young teen's masturbatory fic over what they consider to be the perfect Space Marines. have a better intuitive feel for the difference between witchcraft and say hypnotherapy or holographic illusions - that for example. What? Why? And as far as this goes- That way you get never having to see reasonable Sisters of Battle again and I don't have to repaint my army, delete most of my user page, a tumblr I set up a year ago, and Emperor only knows what else. you get no sympathies for that- no one cares that you have a mighty tumblr page for the Knights Inductor or painted your army after them. Having said all of that, I'm not trying to be mean. I think it's great that you are enthusiastic about fluffing up some homebrew content for 40k. I just think you have to be able to take a step back and realize why people are criticizing what you are doing. ~A concerned Anon

If what you're saying is true then a name change in exchange for allowing to continue otherwise unhindered seems like a small price to pay. No. They dont need a name change, they need to be written out. The whole SoB aesthetic is based around being obnoxiously gaudy and hypergothic. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, reasonable about them. You don't try to make the Notre Dame Cathedral more reasonable and toned down, you should likewise respect how unreasonable the SoBs are. Anything less isn't the SoBs at all and you may as well just say the Aprior Sector has an incredibly fetishistic dress code for their secretaries, because that's what you're turning the Sororitas into. the Order going rogue, the Order largely wiping itself out in an internal schism - both of these phrases should NEVER be used to describe the Sororitas. The Sororitas dont go rogue, they ARE the Ecclesiarchy, they CANNOT go rogue. If you find yourself killing SoBs, then YOU have gone rogue, barring extenuating circumstances that have unfortunately become increasingly common like a need for new hats or the SoBs randomly becoming possessed. all that's left is maybe the order Dialogous or Hospitaller This shows another trend I have noticed in the KIs - none of you guys know the lore. Orders Dialogous translate holy texts FOR the Ecclesiarchy, the Orders Famulous manipulate public opinion and Planetary Governors and such as it suits the needs of the Ecclesiarchy and the Orders Hospitaller have no Hippocratic Oath that compels them to serve anyone beyond those they deem servants of the Emperor. The superate orders all work in unison to spread the word of the God-Emperor, be it through kindness or military strength, such that when you go to war with one order of the Sororitas, you go to war with ALL of them. This means that the petty atheism of the KIs and their war on the SoBs could potentially destabilize the whole sector for generations to come as all the professional doctors refuse to treat those who sided with the KIs since they are heretics. This might even force the KIs to rely on criminal chop docs from the underhives, many of which turn out to be actual heretics, putting the KIs in an even greater bind. But that would involve them not instantly winning at everything. Either way, the bottom line is that the KIs simply cannot rationally be friends with the Sisters of Battle, and making the Sororitas into bumbling, divided dipshits desperate for a savior just makes you look even worse. I don't have to repaint my army, delete most of my user page, a tumblr I set up a year ago, and Emperor only knows what else. This shouldn't be your main concern when someone criticizes the KI. Your main concern should be seeing WHY everyone seems to think your favorite homebrew is the worst homebrew chapter /tg/ has ever produced.Finally if it is "what's considered to be one of the biggest mistakes in the writefaggotry" then why hasn't anyone taken it up with me yet? While I cannot speak for everyone, I know I for one stick mostly to /tg/ and I believe most other fa/tg/uys do too. I never once heard of your tumblr, but once someone showed me the SoB section of the KIs, I tore into it on /tg/ and pointed out why it was awful on several occasions. This feeds into that hugbox/echochamber thing that other anon was referring to, you guys have just plain become too insular. And this is just for the SoBs. I have yet to get into why Null Marines are a terrible idea, but the other anon already covered that so let me just throw in my support of his criticisms as well. - Another anon

That was my whole point- instead of simply admitting the flaws and taking the suggestions as is, they continue to make excuses. You underestimate the fanaticism of the SoB- the KI are as heretical as you can be without utterly falling to Chaos, and anyone who even THOUGHT of joining them would have the sin tortured out of them until they die. They wouldn't even tolerate a name change- at the very least, they'd simply withdraw, but it's more likely that they'll just perform a suicide attack where they go down doing as much damage as they possibly can. If you genuinely want to make them better, you have to know when to just give up. I hate to be rude, but nobody gives a shit about your army or your user page except for you. And I can see quite plainly why nobody left feedback for you- they didn't think you would be able to listen to it. And as much as I want to reserve my judgment, I'm starting to be convinced that they were right.--Newerfag (talk) 19:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Meh, I think I'm starting to see what everyone's riled about now. I sorta rescind my previous statements if such a rewrite/purge of the current Knights Inductor is really happening. I can easily write a more traditional Reasonable Marines codex if anyone's interested. I just like writing crunch to fluff that I like and occasionally adding my own bits here and there. The only thing that I really contributed significantly to in KI Fluff was some of the Null Knight story. Remoon101 (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, the best way I see resolving the Sisters of Battle issue here is to simply not have them in the sector to begin with. I've thought it through a bit and if we have the Sisters here as fanatical as they always are and should be, there's no really dealing with them in a way that leaves the Sector unscathed. Destroy them at the hands of the Knights, and they are definitely traitors. Disarm the Sisters completely and exile them, then have the Ecclesiarchy or someone crack down on the sector as a result. Quarantine them and then that's just against reasonable policy. The best way is to simply have them be absent from the sector. The lack of a more modern Imperial Faith and religious policy in the sector from lack of reinforcement making the Aprior Sector as a whole more open to the Knights when they finally stroll in. At least that's my take on it. I really don't want the Knights Inductor to die, but they are the incarnation of the Reasonable Marines after all and they should be written to more match the originals to begin with.

That said, I'm still a little confused on someone saying that LongPoster who wrote "An Investigation into the Heresy of the Reasonable Marines" not liking what NotLongPoster wrote in the "Return of the Reasonable Marines" in terms of the chaos rehabilitation (which was implied in the original story), the 'nids cooperation (which I agree is pretty ridiculous) and the huge technological advancement of the sector. So the guy who made the Reasonable Marines is NOT LongPoster (and NotLongPoster obviously), right? Just wanted to make that clear in my own head here.

I still think the Null gene should be in there somehow, but it doesn't have enough of a catch for people to not accuse it of giving KI sue powers (or sue immunity or resistance to the Warp). I mean, if the Null aura is within the gene-seed, wouldn't be implanting it in a normal recruit be something akin to subjecting them to the horror of the nothingness of the gene-seed on their soul forever? How does it turn them into semi-blanks? How do they react to it? I mean, the way I envisioned it was that yeah, it makes them immune to daemonic possession and highly resistant to the temptation of their soul (they could still be intellectually convinced to commit heresy, for example), but it doesn't make them immune to being ripped apart by daemons physically (though doing so would cause the daemons pain in proximity but it would the daemons in turn more desperate to kill them). I was under the impression that the Silencers were the only true blanks in the KI. Or that regular KI in numbers would give off a slightly weaker blank aura but only a single normal Knight would have no noticeable effect. Remoon101 (talk) 15:37, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Heres an idea - DONT just hand them a whole sector on a silver platter to mold and power game with as they please. Thats where 90% of the issues that gets them labeled as Mary Sues arises from, you know. Their methods SHOULD be distrusted and considered antagonistic to all humans they try to help instead of everyone, xeno and human alike, lining up to suck their flawless scrotum for being so damn perfect in every which way.

He's right- the Knights should be the underdogs just barely surviving in a universe which is opposed to everything they stand for- they shouldn't have a whole sector that they can mold into their own image of utopia. The only Chapter with that much power is the Ultramarines, and at least they have a rightful claim to Ultramar via their connection to Roboute Guilliman.--Newerfag (talk) 18:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Well I don't know about NotLongPoster(Again) or any other writefag but I'm taking notes so maybe I could take a crack at continuing the Knight Inductor legacy. So I'm guessing you guys would be opposed to the Knights getting a system to themselves? Maybe a tiny subsector of 2-3 systems to work with? Aprior sector made some sense in how they were forced to put down roots, but maybe give them less space to work with this time around? The whole idea was that they were basically on the edge of the Astronomicon so their influence on the rest of the galaxy was largely limited to a small isolated sector of space. Maybe have it as the Warp storms being so serious that they could literally only go to one system and were stuck there. Or would having them permanently fleet-based be more appealing since you want every single human system to hate their guts? A Chapter having jurisdiction over a planet, or over a system or two is not unprecedented, so that's my small argument for downsizing Aprior sector from the current 300-400 planets to a mere 18-29 in one or two systems.

So what I've got so far:

• A whole Aprior sector sandbox to work with is too much, either downsize it a few systems, make it more isolated, or something to limit the Knights Inductor's influence over a number of planets.
• The Null gene makes them Mary Sue-ish in its current incarnation because of the immunity to Chaos or at least to possession (a Knight Inductor can be intellectually convinced through more conventional means). However I believe that its an idea worth keeping, cutting down the number of Silencers perhaps, or the strength of the gene within the average Knight. Perhaps add in a stronger catch besides losing the hypnotherapy based training. And with that make their Primarch a mystery to them.

You can keep the Null Marines if you really want, but in order to do so you must remove all eldar allies the KIs have. Thats more preposterous than SoBs befriending a daemonette since at least the daemonette doesn't cause the SoBs physical pain just by being in the same room as each other, and everyone knows how dumb SoBs with daemonette allies would be. Oh wait...

• Remove the Sisters from the picture entirely, since by /tg/ canon the sisters and Reasonable Marines are entirely at odds with each other, plus it is too messy to try to include them in any other way.
• Technology advantage is too much, however in the original thread for Reasonable Marines it was implied that they had technology on a higher class compared to most Chapters save for the ones with close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Considering how heretical they look to the Imperium anyway technological innovation under the covers is not too far fetched. This is less likely if they are fleet based (unless they have ships dedicated to isolated research on the mysteries of the STC, etc. the modified Quest for Knowledge originally mentioned in current Knight Inductor fluff). This however is more likely if they have a small number of planets on which to establish such research or innovation facilities, with them being hunted/targeted by the Adeptus Mechanicus/Inquisition for their conceived tech heresies.

it was implied that they had technology on a higher class compared to most Chapters save for the ones with close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus This is intensely dumb. In a galaxy where the AdMech have such a stranglehold on technology, where did a bunch of tactically enlightened abut otherwise unlearned battle autists get the scientists required for these innovations? All this serves to do is give yet another faction of the Imperium a reason to want to Exterminatus the KIs.

This is less likely if they are fleet based (unless they have ships dedicated to isolated research on the mysteries of the STC, etc. the modified Quest for Knowledge originally mentioned in current Knight Inductor fluff). This is more of that metagaming stuff the KIs are so guilty of? Where did they learn of the Quest for Knowledge or how to comprehend STCs, especially if they've been cut off from the Imperium for thousands of years? Did they have techmarines before going rogue teach them? Why did these techmarines - individuals indoctrinated to serve the Omnissiah before their own chapter - betray their oaths? This is just another case of the KIs being way more savvy than anyone in their situation should be.

• Make more humans hate them (for whatever reasons) plus branded traitors by the vast majority of Imperial systems. Now this I have to disagree with a little, not every planet is going to be adverse to help from Astartes, and if their military/economic/political situation is stabilized as a result they are going to rather like the Knights Inductor for their help. It makes sense for perhaps more puritanically dominated systems or like-minded Imperial forces to give the KI trouble however, but this really shouldn't extend to literally the entire Imperium. There's bound to be isolated systems far from the Imperial light that would easily side with the Knights and grant them asylum, etc. This would naturally limit their operations to the fringes of the Imperium at the very least.
• The argument that they shouldn't have a huge number of Astartes/Scouts is unfounded in my opinion. Such large numbers of Scouts at least is not unprecedented and would be necessary if we keep the Null gene (and that problem of slower training) in. The increase of 10man to 24man squads could be taken out, but it could easily be kept in as well due to the logic in exploiting that particular loophole in the Codex Astartes. Of course we could say the disadvantage in this is that a lot of them would be without power armor and have to work with carapace armor (or Trooper armor if we keep that technological tidbit in). In the end the Knight Inductor's influence would be pretty limited despite what advantages they had, if they were kept on the outskirts of things, perhaps as hidden defenders of the Imperium operating in likeness to Grey Knights in order to avoid having to deal with the Imperial Guard, the militant branches of the Ordos, or other Astartes Chapters. Remoon101 (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Allow me to respond to your arguments:

• • The KI may think themselves loyal to the Imperium, but as far as the average person in the Imperium knows, they're renegades and traitors- and whoever works with them becomes guilty by association. You underestimate how much power the Adeptus Terra has over the Imperium, and the Adeptus Mechanicus will not let them get away with the tech-heresy of innovation either- they spent thousands of years getting their stranglehold on technology and they sure as hell won't let a few upstarts change that without a long fight. If any sectors do give aid to what has been openly denounced as a renegade chapter (like the Soul Drinkers), they will do so knowing that their involvement with the KI cannot be known by the rest of the Imperium, lest they share in their punishment. As a result, they should have little to no influence at all outside of their own chapter.
• So.... basically kill teams are sent after them to exterminate them? That would be a quick and unfortunate end to the Knight Inductor story. So... how about having them operate on the fringes like I first suggested?
  • • I suppose that would work, BUT they will almost certainly have to deal with the other scum which hang around there who aren't willing to share their territory with idealistic upstarts. There's a lot of pirates, xenos, and heretics out there who won't appreciate a nominally loyalist Chapter muscling in on their turf.
  • The null gene must go- having them resist Chaos because they know it's the right thing to do is far easier to relate to than giving them the equivalent of a get out of jail free card.(Remember, blanks naturally creep out everyone around them and they're believed to lack souls entirely- hardly the sort of person that an Imperial citizen would like being around.) Just give them normal Librarians like anyone else; even in your own crunch you admit that they function in almost exactly the same way.
• Meh. You know how the Thousand Sons had latent psychic powers sprout up with gene-seed implantation (I know Chaos was involved but we are saying that Necrons were involved in this one)? How come we can't do that here? Maybe make it so that out of a couple of batches of recruits only one blank pop up. It doesn't have to be every single Knight.
  • • But the Necrons weren't involved with it. Besides, now that their Primarch is being retconned into being unknown (really, hardly anyone even remembers that a Lost Primarch quest even happened now) it would make no sense for them to have a bunch of blanks hanging around anyway.
  • Bigger is not better- the only reason that the Dark Angels get away with it is because they make sure anyone who pokes around in their business dies before they discover their secrets- AND they have their reputation for getting the job done, along with their history as one of the original Legions. To anyone else in the Imperium, they may act rather strangely but they're still loyalists. The KI don't have those benefits- they openly flaunt the Codex and make outrageous claims about the Emperor, all while engaging in numerous activities considered heretical by nearly everyone else. The Inquisition won't listen to the "slower training" excuse- if anything, it'll motivate them to strike faster so the major companies are depleted faster than new recruits can join them.
• Except the story said a combination of bureaucratic inertia and the support of radical elements behind the benefits of their null gene-seed is what barely kept them alive. If we keep them moving on the very fringes where no one wants to go out to, they'd be harder to tack down (if we keep them fleet-based). If we do keep the null gene IN (which I understand you want OUT) that gives them a significant reason for radical Inquisitors to slow things down for them. Or we could just do "rock falls, everyone dies"
  • • Radicals would prefer to manipulate the KI, helping them only when they personally benefit from it- that's a reason that would work without having to resort to the null-gene excuse. As soon as the KI starts trying to assert their independence from the Radical elements, they'll join the Puritan comrades in hunting the KI down (except maybe the Istvaanites, who would want such a war to drag out as long as possible.
  • The Grey Knights can do what they do because they operate as part of the Inquisition, and their secrecy is assured with the death or mind-scrubbing of all eyewitnesses. The KI have neither of those things, so someone will reveal their existence if they try to play the role of "hidden defender", and the people who they were trying to aid will turn on them as soon as they realize who the KI are.
• It doesn't take much for a planet, or a whole system to turn to Chaos, what is so different about the heresy of reason possibly doing the same thing on the fringes of the Imperium where aid is scarce and word coming from the center is a little fuzzy on these things? It basically means the Knights Inductor won't be able to operate anywhere besides the fringes of the Imperium.
  • • Exactly. But that also means that the systems they "help" are doomed to a purge as soon as the Inquisition learns of their involvement, which should cause them no small amount of anguish when (or if) they realize this.

--Newerfag (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I feel like we have different ideas of how dedicated the Imperium is to stamping out heresy. Maybe it's because the first Black Library novel I read was Ciaphas Cain, but it seems to me that there must be, at some level, an awareness that there are only so many planets that the Imperium can stand to Exterminatus, and only so many Space Marine Chapters that can be purged, before everything starts to fall to pieces, so they have to pick their battles. This is also supported by the "Rocks are NOT free, citizen" short work, in which the Imperium performs a cost-benefit analysis of various methods of Exterminatus -- why not other aspects of governance? Asserting that the Emperor is, while perhaps not a god, the finest example of a human who ever lived (sacrificing himself daily so that the Imperium might survive, etc.) is hardly the most "outrageous" of Space Marine Chapter beliefs, and if they return worlds to the fold without burning everything to cinders, and fight Chaos and xenos invasions (*which is not to say that they cannot peacefully interact with Eldar or Tau, but letting them manhandle their way into human-settled planets is out of the question) like any other chapter, why go out of their way to stomp them? I mean, that Bishop who ordered thirty Chapters into the Eye of Terror (which resulted in thirty new warbands of Chaos Space Marines) turned out to be serving Chaos the whole time. (Although I also recall that his history was purged once this was discovered, thereby preventing anyone from learning a lesson from the whole affair, so maybe I am giving the Imperium too much credit after all.)

You don't have to Exterminatus a planet to punish it for working with the KIs, just assassinate all the administrative personnel who worked with the renegades and replace them with more servile puppets. Shouldnt take more than a handful of Callidus and Vindicare, maybe an Eversor or two to be sure.

Also, many of the factors that people take issue with, like the unusual size, the sector to themselves, and the close cooperation with a Sororitas convent, were from LongPoster's "An Investigation..." short story (archived on this wiki). I'd have felt bad (still would feel a little bothered, to be honest) if I'd used the name without incorporating those elements. Alternatively, given that nobody in the Imperium is a truly reliable narrator, any of those "facts" might have been exaggerations, or maybe were true at one time but no longer.

The null thing came from an idea (not a terribly original one, to be honest) I'd had of a Second Legion where the Primarch's "thing" was being a Null (also inspired by the Reasonable Marines, but in the Horus Heresy...I forget all the details). I'd iterated on that idea for a while, and then stumbled upon that short story, and then the Lost Primarch Quest, featuring a Null, Angry Marines-inspired Second Primarch and his Legion, and it all fell together. That's where the term "Silencers" came from. All of the preceding was to say that the Knights don't know about their progenitor at all -- they only know that their gene-seed initially came from the Angry Marines, except that it has the Pariah gene in it (whether that was part of the Angry Marines' gene-seed all along or added artificially is not known to them).

The bits with the Tyranids and so on I fabricated because I figured, "Hey, so there's Reasonable Marines, why not the rest?" They weren't built on anything written by anyone else (beyond the general "background" of the 40K universe, I suppose).

All of this is to explain why I was so casual about raising the possibility of jettisoning some things in that thread I posted in the other day, and why I feel more inclined to defend, justify, or alter the elements I mentioned three paragraphs up (i.e. elements from "An Investigation...") rather than discard them outright. This doesn't make any of them better or worse, but I think it's interesting to think about how and why things get to be where they are. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

No offense, but your justifications for things as ridiculous as "Smiles the Friendly Tyranid" or atheist SoBs are flimsy at best. You cannot exect us to take your chaoter seriously if your reasons for violating the lore like an Austrian and his daughter are "Just cuz" anda "Because someone else said it". This just leads to the KIs being a joke, whether you intend for them to be or not.

It's good to be idealistic and all, but you have to remember that humanity gave reason a chance during the Dark Age of Technology. It didn't work. The whole point of the Reasonable Marines was that while their methods may be appealing to us, it would also get them branded as traitors to the Imperium and ultimately fail to stop any of mankind's enemies. And remember that "why not" is the polar opposite of a convincing explanation for anything. In any case, LongPoster is long gone as far as anyone knows- don't feel compelled to slavishly follow in his footsteps.--Newerfag (talk) 03:39, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

That would be like writing about the Ultramarines and, along the way, mentioning the minor detail that they never actually came from Ultramar (at least, it would feel that way to me). If I ever generate a more canon-friendly Reasonable Marines chapter, I'll call them something else. (Which still leaves the question of what to do with the Knights. I'm half inclined to strip out anything that goes beyond "An Investigation..." and then leave them.) --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 05:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

That really seems like the only thing that everyone here would be able to agree upon. As a part of the main setting the Aprior sector just doesn't seem to work like it used to (assuming that the original novelty of the chapter didn't simply lead people to overlook potential problems). I'm no writer, so I;ll skip on trying to analyze what went wrong and where, but for the momemt /tg/'s reaction to the end results speaks for itself. If you keep the KI, it might be best to just make it part of its own AU instead of trying to make it part of the main canon- there are simply too many irreconcilable differences for such an integration to occur without breaking a considerable part of the lore in the process.--Newerfag (talk) 07:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I think turning the entire universe on them to stamp out the existence of the Knights Inductor is a reasonable solution to this issue. Remoon101 (talk) 03:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

In a nutshell, yes. Don't overcompensate and have it just curbstomp the KI, though- allow them to put up a fight so they can die with some shred of dignity. --Newerfag (talk) 03:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

That could be the beginning of a 40K sitcom -- a Space Marine Chapter from a reasonable alternate universe (something like Brighthammer, maybe) gets dropped into 40K and has hilarious misadventures in dealing with the grimdark. For example, the battle-barge "Ever Onward" (or whatever) is having technical difficulties beyond the Techmarines' ability to handle, so they (reluctantly) put to port at a Forge World. "Brother-Captain, the lead tech-priest is administering percussive maintenance to the holo-lith with what appears to be a cybernetic phallus." *canned studio laughter*

I'm being mostly tongue-in-cheek...mostly. It's been done before, but usually I think it's stuff from 40K leaking out, as it were (e.g. Marcius Flavius). --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 03:55, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

What would you call Space Marines who use Stealth more (camo-cloaks for everyone!), largely stick to shooting as opposed to CQC, and generally seem averse to throwing away lives? To me, anyway, that's what the Reasonable Marines should be about. Of course they venerate the Emperor, pretty much all Marines do without actually worshiping him. That's not the same as being xeno-consorting heretics with super-advanced technology and anti-Warp powers. The Reasonable Marines shouldn't be shunned by the Imperium any more than any other divergent Chapter, because that's all they ought to be, I'd say. --Bjorn (talk) 04:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I would call them the Raptors, which incidentally already exists in canon and can do everything the KI does (except for the obvious heresy) without having to rely on the crutches of metagaming to get shit done.--Newerfag (talk) 05:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Raptors. And no one has a problem with Operator Marines, they take issue with the bullshit plot powers and the ability to convert everything from tyranids to daemons.

• However, another solution I think of thematically is this: the Damnos Crusade goes just as planned. Forewarned of the capabilities of the Aprior Sector by puritanical sympathizers and the former Sisters of Reasons who were quick to turn on their erstwhile allies, Inquisitor Damnos pulls some immense strings to nearly double the size of the crusade to stomp out the Aprior Sector. For all their technology and valor, Aprior Sector burns, but not without nearly wiping out the crusade in self-defense. It should be noted that despite the consequences, the Knights Inductor themselves used sub-lethal suppression methods to deal with the Imperial Guard and Astartes elements tasked to destroy them. Inquisitor Damnos is killed on his flagship by a Terminator boarding party when he fights to the end, ending his own life in the process to avoid being captured. Inquisitior Rightina flees with the help of the Knights Inductor, branded as a traitor and to be hunted by the Inquisition for the rest of her life, though given help and cover by sympathetic radical Inquisitors.

Even with or rather because of Inquisitor Damnos' death his last order to the crusading forces urges them onwards and to ignore all diplomatic attempts from the Aprior Sector. They leave burning worlds behind as they carve a path straight to the heart of the sector, even as they take horrific losses in both space and on the ground. Ironically those most loyal to the Imperium are the first to bear the brunt of the Inquisition's wrath.

In a critical engagement the exterminatus cannon is disabled, and most other ships are too damaged to perform Exterminatus by sustained bombardment. However the back of the Aprior Sector Battle Fleet is broken during the same engagement, with only a scant number of ships pulling back to defend the inner heart of the Aprior sector.

The Tarrasque class battleship which would've surely turned the tide destroyed five times its number before the skimmer drive malfunctioned due to battle damage, leaving it stranded in the middle of the right flank of the enemy fleet with no way out. After sustaining critical damage, it blows its cold fusion reactors, eliminating the entire right flank of the fleet surrounding Aprior Regius and leaving it open to the remaining crusade ships. The other Strike cruisers armed with the latest technology at the time wreak a terrible toll on the Crusade in other areas, but they are too few in number to turn the tide. The Astrolux Dominant accounts for a huge amount of ships as the apocalyptic prismatic lancing beams burns downs the shields of several battleships and tearing right through smaller space craft before being rammed by an Angry Marine battle barge. The resulting impact tore the lesser vessel in half as it tried to activate its skimmer drives. Both vessels vanished without a trace, believed to be destroyed in mid-semi-Warp transit.

The Aprior Guard, unable to really use sub-lethal methods like the Knights Inductor, use their full capabilities to cut through entire regiments of the Imperial Guard and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Adeptus Astartes alike while fighting to the last man for civilian shuttles to evacuate. The Eldar of Lida help in this by cloaking the shuttles from the enemies' minds. The vast majority of them however remain in the Lida subsector to defend their own planets, leaving the Aprior subsector to its own fate. Out of all the Aprior forces, the Guard and system defense militia do the most damage against the crusade, armed with techno-sorcery equal to that of the average Stormtrooper squads.

The Tyranid Norn Queen cuts off all communication abruptly with the ISIS and attempts to jump into Warp space to flee the oncoming crusade. Realizing the risk of having such a creature return to the Hive Mind, the ISIS order the bio ship carrying Adelind to be stopped. A few ships manage to tail it but are never seen or heard from again.

The "Shhhhhhh..." of the local Orks in the area have a jolly good time finally getting into a proper scrap, and were supposedly wiped out in intense combat in the subsector they were in. However after action reports would imply they managed to escape, and perhaps even hijacked an Imperial vessel to do so before leaving the system.

Ironically, despite the literal treasure trove of human produced technology (including two major STC's: Invisibility tech and an armor composite), the Adeptus Mechanicus liaisons with the crusade have all the heretical technology they can find destroyed. The majority of workshop schematics are kept safe from their actions, taken with the Knights Inductor as what was left of them fled the system as every workshop produced a copy of their data which is fed to the main system. The pilot of battlesuit MkI Prototype emerges for the last time to allow a research installation to evacuate with precious data, fighting off Skitarii and Imperial Guard forces single-handedly before detonating his suit to avoid being captured. Tech priests, magi and enginseers that were contacted by Apriori workshops and Mechanicus adepts are tracked down and made to pay for their interactions with hereteks, the designs gifted to them confiscated and destroyed.

Captain Isaac Rico personally made it a point to take on his Angry Marine brothers to show that the Knights Inductor weren't all that soft. He most likely died in combat, having hacked all the way through the lesser Angry Marines to face the presiding Captain and his royally pissed off Bale Guard. The rest of his assault company loyally followed him into the center of the Angry Marine formation and died valiantly and violently. However his ultimate fate is unknown as attempts to figure out what happened from the Angry Marines resulted in a kick to the crotch.

The majority of 6th company is not present in the Aprior Sector for the Damnos crusade and largely escapes annihilation as a result. They continue their hunt of the Null Knights whilst remaining under the radar, being split into multiple divisions to increase their chances of capturing and eliminating their tainted brethren. When asked what he was going to do after destroying all the Null Knights, Captain Xavion said "I'm going to destroy the Necrons for having started all this. I am not a traitor against the Imperium, I will continue to serve even if we are branded traitors. As long as the threat of Necrons remains, I will not rest until I have done the utmost in killing them"

Captain Roland Darren, Master of the Deal attempts to convince portions of the fleet to see reason. He successfully turns several Imperial Guard elements to their side by his powerful oratory and even gives some (non-Angry Marines) Astartes pause. However Terminator kill teams lock on to the constant vox signals he was giving off and attempt to eliminate him. But even more cloaked Terminators were in the vicnity and moved to engage. It is believed Darren managed to escape but he has yet to make contact with the rest of the Knight Inductor fleet.

Chapter Master Zakis Randi manages to lead a substantial portion of ships away from Aprior Sector escaping even further into the fringes of the Astronomicon's light using a coordinated random emergency skimmer drive jump. Alpha Silencer Rachnus confounds the Inquisition's attempts to detect the fleet's psychic signature as they flee the Sector. Unfortunately, three-fourths of the Nullarium were caught up in battle and killed, mainly by Assassinorum agents as other elements of the crusade tasked to kill them usually fled in fear or were too unnerved to be combat effective. Rumors of a scant few escaping and finding themselves in anonymous service in the Deathwatch are labeled as unsubstantiated at best. Imperium ships that attempted to pursue were quickly left behind as the gravitic inertial dampeners allow the fleet to outpace them.

Only a little less than a third of the Chapter escapes, with most of the Aprior Armed forces destroyed. Most of the population of Aprior Proper escapes on available colony ships that had been meant to head into the Imperium, now heading away as far as feasibly possible.

The Order of Reason are subsequently wiped out by the crusade afterwards for having aided the traitors, even if they still claimed loyalty to the Imperium. During the crusade itself, they turn on their comrades, attempting to disrupt Aprior formations and cause as much destruction as possible. They are largely contained by the Knights due to their inferior arms and armor, as well as their limited numbers to begin with. Unfortunately due to their efforts an entire system burns before they join the crusade as it swiftly gains momentum.

The remaining mutants and cultists being rehabilitated are all given the Emperor's Mercy, considering the fleeing Knights Inductor don't have the facilities to contain them. The facility itself, of course, is utterly destroyed by Inquisitorial forces. Several Daemons within cursed artifacts are released as well, some subtly possessing the soliders of the Inquisition sent in. The friendly Daemonette Ardi manages to escape destruction as well, but is unable to make contact with the fleeing Aprior fleet.

Many innocents die as a result of the crusade, causing the lights in a certain hall on a specific Battle Barge to skyrocket. However many lives are preserved as well, fleeing along with the tattered former Aprior Armed forces and the Knights Inductor into an uncertain future. The fleet remains mobile, though they settle a few worlds on which to begin anew. They make preparations in advance for future military actions against their Fringe Sector, knowing that they cannot run much further and won't be able to next time.

The Chapter, having only fought in desperate self-defense, is stamped as Excommunicate Traitoris. However, they manage to settle down further outwards on the bare fringes of the Imperium, biding their time to return to the rest of the Imperium in its darkest hour. They are for the time being marginalized in their heresy of reason as they can only aid the more desperate and isolated systems on the outskirts of the Imperium. Attempt to capture them become increasingly difficult as most if not all their ships within the next century or so become capable of rapid successive skimmer drive jumps. As their threat to the Imperium has been severely limited, most opt to completely ignore their growing presence on the fringe of the Imperium, though a few zealous disciples of the deceased Inquisitor Damnos attempt to track them down, with no success.

A revised report by Inquisitor Rightina mysteriously finds its way back into the hands into the Inquisition, which more conventionally showed the merits of the Knights Inductor's deviations in vidcasts of some their more hard-fought battles with running commentary by Zakis himself. The revealing that two STC schematics were destroyed in the Damnos crusade causes an uproar in the council. They elect to hide the fact from the Adeptus Mechanicus lest the Inquisition (especially the Puritanical division) be discredited in their mechanical eyes.

This is merely a small suggestion though

Seeing as you deleted the talk page where you first posted the above, allow me to repeat my initial response (barring some minor edits).

All you're doing is the equivalent of flipping the table here. It sounds like it might appease some people who just want to see them crushed, but the same flaws that were mentioned time after time are still there for all to see. The KI don't need a redemption- they need to be completely rewritten from the ground up. Don't take Aprior away from them- make it so that they never had a whole sector for themselves in the first place. No friendly daemonettes, no sapient Tyranids, no special team of trained blanks, no atheist SoBs, no anything from the fluff in its current state. There is NOTHING LEFT TO REDEEM. And having the Inquisition get all weepy-eyed at successfully breaking a rogue Chapter's power couldn't possibly be more OOC for them. Sure, they take a serious beating and are almost wiped out, but in the end the KI make their enemies admit that the KI are right and they are wrong- which is exactly what so many people (including myself) have been objecting to all this time. --Newerfag (talk) 17:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry 'bout that. In any case, they aren't weepy eye'd anymore (minor edits)

"Sorry" isn't going to cut it. The story you projected solves none of the problems that were discussed and in fact actually makes them worse because in the end they ultimately are no worse off than when they started. They lost their sector, but everyone except the big bad Puritans is lining up to suck their reasonable dicks at the end, not to mention the fact that in their new sector they're just going to do the exact same shit all over again. And let me tell you something about the KI and Radicals: they can't expect any help from the latter. Xanthites hate them because the KI oppose Chaos. Istvaanites want to spread more conflict, while KI want to minimize it. KI want slow reforms of Imperial Governmnent, while the majority of Recongregators want to tear it all down. The Libricars and Oblationists would hate them for the same reasons that Puritans would, and the last thing the Polypsykana wants is a bunch of anti-psykers running around meddling with the psychic transformation of humanity. The only factions that MIGHT be sympathetic are the Seculos Attendous (which is small and highly fragmented) and the Xeno Hybris (which is equally small and lacks influence), and even then the most they would be able to do is not openly condemn them. Oh, and the fact that you even mention the Angry Marines (which were explicitly made as a joke chapter) as playing an important role will guarantee that nobody will ever take your story seriously. You can keep telling us that you shit gold, but that doesn't keep it from stinking. --Newerfag (talk) 02:45, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

>Even in death, the KIs are flawless sues that manage to convince even the staunchest adversary to join their cause

You know, I think this little block of text has convinced me more than anything else how beyond saving the KIs are.

• It was NotLongPosterAgain's idea to have the Angry Marines originally in that last crusading fleet, though they could easily be taken out or replaced with a similar Chapter

I feel neutral about them. There are fan-made Warhammer 40K alternate universes where everyone gets along, and I like those, but this has gone from 'space marines that are reasonable' to an attempt to shove an AU like that into the main setting. It does not work.--50.89.209.198 03:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

• In light of recent discussion I have decided to just make a separate Codex - Reasonable Marines based off of the older ideals. I'll leave the fluff rewrites for the Knights Inductor to other self-proclaimed professionals here. Like with most codicies I work on I will be taking responsibility for actually making the codex and will accept new additions on the talk page and add them in as is reasonable. Wish me luck, I expect good things to come from this Remoon101 (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like the best solution there. Good luck, then.--Newerfag (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)