Talk:Codex - Emperor's Nightmare

I'm fascinated by the amount of work and detail invested in the creation of this codex and I would love to work with the creators on its improvement. Of course, being a designer myself means that I'm an ego-maniac and if it was for me I would just scrap many things in the codex and re-write much of its special rules. To avoid getting into conflict with the creators of the codex I would only leave two major comments:

- convoluted rules - I suppose this is the result of the desire to make your snowflake unique (a quirk shared by most custom 40k rules across the web). I would cut many custom rules just because they are over-used across the codex - custom wargear here and there, custom rules for most units... Honestly playing with this chapter would prove to be quite difficult because it's built around the idea of using every bit. I agree that this is focused towards a bit more hardcore gamer but it seems that even the most experienced masterminds would have to keep notes during the game whether they had activated the proper rule in the proper time.

- lack of balance in most chapter-unique units - my greatest issue in general is that the creator(s) of the codex believe that points cost might offset broken balance. Of course, one could argue that the core game and its codices share this flaw but what I'm talking about here is to try bringing balance into a game that is great but suffers from marketing-biased game design. We, as fans who design content for the game we love, on the other hand, would never cash anything from our work. This said, we have the unique opportunity to generate enough custom content to allow other players to enjoy a fairly balanced game. Of course I realize that the perfect balance is achieved through a lot of empirical testing, but the idea in mind should be "let's make this shit balanced"

WARGEAR REVIEW

• Secundus Darkfire Rounds - in 7th edition making an enemy unit visible for the purposes of Night Fighting would reduce its survival chances by roughly 50% which is quite a lot for a game where the entire army of the player acts at the same time. On the other hand most scenarios feature one turn of Night Fighting (50% of the time) which makes the use of this wargear quite situational. My take:
  • Darkfire Rounds

S n/a AP - RNG 36 Type: Heavy 1, Blast, Flare (leave the blast in place after scattering until the end of the current phase: models inside the radius reduce their cover save by -1)

• • • this would make it usable throughout the entire game
    • this change would require increase of points cost in all entries
    • models under the blast may be fired using the Focus Fire rule in 7th edition

• Secundus Hellfire Rounds - very nice, but the ruling sounds convoluted - instead add a profile for a Sniper rifle firing mode:
• Hellfire Sniper Rounds

S X AP 6 RNG 36 Heavy 1, Poisoned (2+), Sniper

• Darkfire Flare Rifle - quite overpowered due to the spread of the weapon among the unit profiles in the codex. My take would be to either limiting to paper-thin squads such as Scouts and/or some special character or all independent characters (for bumped-up cost of +15 points to take the increased BS into effect) OR to modify the rules of the weapon:
  • Darkfire Flare Rifle

S n/a AP - RNG 24 Type: Assault 1, Target Acquired (For each hit by a weapon with this special rukle place a mark next to the enemy unit hit. Marks remain in place until the end of the current phase. Other allied units targeting the marked unit may re-roll all missed shots. Remove a mark after it is utilized in this manner.)

• Narthecium Glaive - it's quite a nice weapon excluding the additional strength test to activate the ID rule - with one attack it would surely ; my only concern is the custom dreadnought ruling that says that it can make a lot more attack with it, mainly because it sounds...weird and convoluted. My take:
  • Narthecium Glaive

S+1 AP 3 Type: Melee, Two-handed

S U AP- Type: Melee, Two-handed, Instant Death, Poisoned (2+), Precise Injection (the wielder may perform only one attack using this profile)

• • Nartheculator Arm (dreadnought variant)

Sx2 AP 2 Type: Melee, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon

S U AP - Type: Melee, Instant Death, Poisoned (2+), Manipulator Injection (the wielder may perform only one attack using this profile per Nartheculator Arm equipped)

• Tactical Dreadnought Armour - bad naming only because you never mention it in the entries as TDA - if you want to name it TDA, either edit all entries where it's available or name it TA and mention the TDA in the flavor text. Also, I would rule this as following: The model has 2+ armor and 5+ invulnerable save and the Among Equals, Bulky, Deep Strike and Relentless special rules but cannot make sweeping advances

• Signs of the Sleepless - overpriced by roughly 5 pts(15+10-10 pts + drawback). Otherwise the rule for this is one of the dozens of exceptions in the codex. I'd rather stick to adding a modified and better-ruled-out Faltering Reality army special rule

• Prophetic Dreams - in 7th edition PE affects the entire unit. But not very interesting - yes, I'd pay for it just for having the chance to have PE against some of the enemy units but the way it's randomized it will often result in stacking "overkills". If I have the spare points, yes, otherwise - no. That's one of the points in my first post in the discussion - in game design if you're not sure why you added something just don't add it. I would either cut this rule (pity for the flavor) or re-rule it completely:
  • Prophetic dreams (5 pts/model) - Immediately before the start of the first turn nominate one enemy unit - the bearer of this wargear gains to re-roll one die once per game against or regarding the chosen unit - to hit, to wound, armor penetration, a save, a charge distance die, a sweeping advance die, a leadership test die, a characteristic test caused by the unit, etc.
    • this seems like a lot more usable to me, because with its help my ICs can ignore nasty stuff like Dire Swords or even Void Grenades and they can fist the enemy tanks or ICs better, etc.

• Dreamcatcher - just re-write the ruling: One use only. At any time during the course of battle the bearer of this wargear may add or subtract 1 to his Leadership. The effects last until the end of the current turn.

• Redundant Systems - yes and no; again, paying 30 pts more for this rule doesn't fix the balancing issue where I'm allowed to shrug-off most of the effects that reduce my vehicle shooting. You have to limit it to dreadnoughts and Land Raiders, thus you will also remove the redundant "only this and this weapon and only when..."

• MI Shoulder Mount - nice flavor, but why don't you lose the whole thing (keeping only the flavor somewhere) and in the given dread entries state the storm bolter as "shoulder mounted on frontal 90 degree pivot"

• General notes on Wargear section - some "wargear" sounds like "special rules" to me - special rules could also be purchaseable options (like Marks of Chaos), but the difference between the two is all about flavor - e.g. what kind of stuff do I have to buy to have Prophetic Dreams? Mushrooms and ayahuaska? It totally sounds like a SR and not wargear

SPECIAL RULES REVIEW

(doesn't include unique characters)

• Army-wide
  • Sleep Beckons - while I can see the merit of having some tasty randomness I wouldn't add this special rule at all. Flavor is nice, but for me incorporating it in a codex would be the following dilemma: Less dreads (which clearly isn't the idea of this dread-heavy codex) or making the rule less-attention-heavy (e.g. treat Crew Shaken as Crew Stunned), but I feel that changing this rule drastically would harm the codex somehow. OK, maybe something like that: At the start of your turn 4 and later, each Dreadnought in the army counts his WS, BS and I euqla to 3 for the rest of the game (hurts ancient guys with higher stats more, is easier to track)
  • Redundant Crew - those mahreens should be quite cramped in there in their power armor! Also, not very interesting and seems a lot like Extra Armor - all vehicles with this SR have access to EA, too. I'd rather change it to One Use Only: Negate one Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result
  • Among Equals - nice idea, but the rule is a redundantly heavy. Two things - first, say that terminators may always retreat towards other terminators if there is a clear line towards them; second, make all terminators organized into Sections across all unit entries - a section is a unit of 3 terminators, you can split and join them during combat, etc. Your normal 10-man-max squad would consist of 1 terminator sarge (accompanies one of the sections when they split) and 1 section, with the option of adding 2 more
  • Faltering Reality - I think you have to make it more clear and not only confined to the Sleepless, so that you can include it into the Signs of the Sleepless and other units. Also, the rukle is quite heavy and penalizing right now - maybe if it;s your own creation you have a very clear idea how to offset this shit, but to me these guys seem like fucked-up goblin fanatics that would kill my precious few beaky boys on turn two (esp. combined with 16 pts/model, whoa!). To better work with ICs and Sleepless (and potentially Dreads if you feel like including it to them in the future) I'd rule it as following: if a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, at the start of each fighting sub-phase make a Leadership test using the highest LD among models with this special rule. If the test is failed, for the duration of this fight sub-phase the frenzy takes over the unit - each time a model with the Faltering Reality special rule misses with an attack the enemy chooses to direct one S4 AP- hit against a unit in the same combat that has models within 2" of the frenzied unit, including against the frenzied unit itself
• Master of the Forge/Techmarine
  • Prophetic Blueprints - I'd make it similar to my proposition for Propjetic Dreams - choose one enemy vehicle or Vehicle squadron and gain Tank Hunters against it. Otherwise you have quite a fair chance not to use it in most battles unless you're playing against mech-heavy list in which case a dreadnought-heavy list (why take a MOTF otherwise?) would be easy prey for fast or shooty enemy vehicles
  • Structural Knowledge - you would hit most of the enemy walkers on 4+ or better anyway (is there any walker with WS9???). Instead replace it with Tank Hunters against walkers - combined with the rule above this would allow you to have TH vs 2+ enemy units at the same time (one walker and one other, or vs Ork, BA and SW dred bash lists - even more)
• Phobetor Dreadnought
  • Healing hands - use of drug needles rectified in wargear revision
  • Only in Death - why don't you just make this dude an upgrade for the Sleepless unit? Mixing vehicle and non-vehicle models together is not heresey - you would make all potential players' lives a lot easier by doing so, gracefully clarifying 'coherency' rulings
  • The Nightmare Ends - if you follow with my idea about 'only in death' then you just need to say - the dude goes nuts and must always move towards the nearest enemy unit
• Icelus Dreadnought - the unit itself is epically overpowered and under-costly; more about it later
  • Acute Senses don't exist any more. They are replaced with Night Vision which completely ignores the rule. The Fleet USR also no longer allows you to run and then assault. Sorry, brosky
  • Quiet as the Grave - seems a bit too powerful to me - I'd just keep the "within 6" -1 Ld", esp. if it stacks with itself... you can make Ld 10 armies like Crons tremble with mortal fear with 2 of these boys
  • Nimble - awesome, the dread is nimble but why don't you emphasize on that by just ADDING the additional USRs to its list of USRs???

UNIT REVIEW

(doesn't include unique characters)

• General impression - to me it seems like I'm looking at a supplement for Codex: Space Marines. Moat of the stuff written here doubles with the SM codex with the exception of some options for upgrade characters. You could've saved yourself a lot of writing by simply listing the unique units, excluding the forbidden units (such as fleshy Devastators) and then just adding the rest of the usable shared units. Unique wargear and rules options could have been added into an initial section, e.g. "All sergeants may take:"
  • You're lacking beneficial Chapter Tactics - all modern mahreens go after this fashion. Pick a couple of rules, if you want to suffer (and we, testers, along with you) make them highly situational, like - "all flamers gain Shred after the unit arrives from Deep Strike" (a wild example about a rule that would kick in 1,5 times per battle on average)
• Terminators - I like the idea of mixing wargear on my termies freely, but if you follow my idea about 3-man sections, you have to re-write some of the wargear limitation options as per section. Also, if you state that your terminators are few and specialized, I'd like to see more options into them (not just shooty/punchy termies) to emphasize the need for ulatr-specialist Rambo-like dudes. Also, combined with the Among Equals your current FOC places for them seem a bit fishy
• Captain - if you want shooty Rambo army, allow the poor sod something more threatening than a Sniper rifle - you did great by allowing a Cyclone ML on the terminator armor. Also, I'd be happy to see a "Mounted Assault"-like rule if he's a Secundus dude - won't my Scouts become more Veteran if he's there? (a wild example)
• Librarians - you no longer have FIXED POWERS, dude; welcome to the era of Fantasy Lores-of-Magic spells (oops, meant psychic powers). You have to pick schools - I'd recommend your flavory Librarians to take Divination, Telepathy and Telekinesis
  • Living Nightmares - this is awesome power, you could either auto-include it for all psykers (a bit OP) or allow them to replace one of their powers with it. If it's about tasting fear, would it affect Fearless and ATSKNF units (most fear-based powers currently don't)? Also, I allowed myself to add some neat effects which could be easily over-ridden with a minor edit if you dislike them:
    • Warp Charge 1 or 2. This is a malediction with a range of 18". When manifested, roll D3 on the table below if it was manifested with 1 warp charge or a D6 if it was manifested with 2:
      • 1 - You take me for a fool!? - The target's controlled is allowed to move the affected unit D6+1" in any direction if the unit is unengaged (to a minimum of 0"). The affected unit cannot be affected by Living Nightmares until the rest of the game
      • 2 - Irritation - the target takes a penalty of -1 I and subtracts 1 from run and charge moves
      • 3 - Confusion - the target must pass a Ld test before it moves, shoots or charges
      • 4 - Panicked response - the target may only fire Snap shots (like the updated Without Number formation of the Nids where the enemies shoot so much at it that they get out of ammo - the Snap shots represent their panicked reloading)
      • 5 - Horror- the target suffers -1 to its WS, BS and Ld
      • 6 - Despair - the target immediately falls back and takes 2D6 S3 AP- hits with the Ignore Cover special rule
  • The Blackest Night - make it a special rule for psykers - it allows them to swap one of their powers for The Shrouding power from the Telepathy discipline
• Primus Terminator Squad - termies in Drop Pods is a HERESY - one of the offsets of being a living tank is that you have to risk it a bit when teleporting in the midst of battle from 80 miles
• Secundus Nightkin - BS5? Not very interesting. You have a shitload of stuff that allows you to retry missed shots in this army. Give them BS4 - they are already an awesome unit
• Dreadnought - revise the Primus Venerable as Fleet no longer gives you to charge after running
• Waking Dead - revise role and points, fleet is changed, you need to tell what it means to have NCSMW (I know, you know, but it's fugly not to explain a rule that isn't a USR)
• The Sleepless - you promised me +1A, +1I and -1 LD and what do I get here? Crappy I4! Make the fellas I5, allow them to upgrade with more weapons (like claws) and plasma pistols and voila! Also, JP cost too much, make them 5 pts? Cheap jumpy units are the new black
• Icelus Dreadnought - now that's the reason why I decided to write here in the first time - it's boringly OP shit, dude. Conversion to 7e means that now it has T6, also it has the profile of a chapter master and a ton of USRs. For 100 pts. May I take 20? With Smash its claws are now AP2 and shred, thank you. I can easily lose one claw to benefit from relentless + two heavy guns because A4... It even has Stealth to bounce-off pesky plasma and missiles. See? It's one-man army - can I take 20? It's too much of an auto-include unit, like a multiple-take unique character. Even if you double the points cost you will hit the reasonable stacking limitation - cut off some stats, cut off some rules, cut off some options
• Devastartor Dreadnought Squad - first, vehicle squads + drop pods means lots of confusion; besides they are walkers and devastators, cut the pods! Also, you didn't mention if they have a CC arm - since they are devastartor patterns, I'd replace it with an automatic ML

UNIQUE CHARACTERS REVIEW

• All psykers - in 7e there are psychic mastery levels - make your legendary dudes Level 3 and be not found wanting
• Thureos - OP mortherfucker - see why:
  • I8 + S10 + armorbane means that nothing will remain after this fucker charges it; he can even sweep advance... If you want a nasty CC unit make him I5 and give him a necron Warscythe(S+2 AP2 Melee, Two-handed, Armorbane) so that he doesn't evaporise all shit
  • Terrifying Presence - reduce this to "-1LD to all in 6 inches" - otherwise it's insta-break after CC with him
  • Loyal To No One - +1 bonus attack at high S, AP and I? Thanks! I'd rather make him hit his own like Kharn does
• Taheton Hector - there's no arrow on the hit sign of the standard scatter die AFAIK - just rule that the hits must be re-rolled until they hit an arrow
• Leander Nyseos
  • Claw of the Dusk - NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. How about you playing against a whole army that starts one move away from you? Before you mention Shrike, he was specially ruled so that you cannot infiltrate terminators - even Creed cannot sneak in titans anymore! Remove this Special rule completely, give the poor guy Infiltration instead
• Chief Apothecary Eidelan - interesting dude, but he sounds as if he is Lemartes on steroids. Why didn't you give him a nurgle's rot anti-tarpit ability thatcan be spammed so that you make sure your Sleepless dudes get in CC with the enemy elites instead of being swamped with runts? Because the way he is meant to be played originally makes him way too powerful for my liking.
  • Shepherd of the Dreamless - you mean that the bonus As remain only until the end of the combat in which the Sleepless are stuck, not until the end of the game, I hope?
  • Terror Tactics - give this guy and his unit the Fear special rule and inflict -1 LD on enemy Fear tests vs him
• Supreme Dreamwalker Theodore Dymas
  • the sword no longer needs to allow him to cast 3 powers if he is ML3; also what does "give up one power" mean - he loses it for the rest of the game or he just casts 1 less - clarify; also to give a 2+ invulnerable save to a whole unit is quite nasty, consider only cover saves (as it requires you to put a bit mastery, not just make a termy unit of 10)
  • fist of dreaming - think about how many powers the fella knows and if he sould have any automatic ones at all
  • prophet of slumber - that thing with the grenades seems like mental jerking to me - what does it have to do with him being a wise librarian? it just sounds like "He killed my SCVs - I killed his family" stuff. Please remove it, it's bad stuff - if you want a revenge power (and you already have a guy with orbital strike revenge) think of something else

--

Well hi. Not sure when this was put here, as it's been a long time since anything to do with the Nightmare has been talked about. I think the main problem with most of this stuff looking back is that it...

1. Was made with 5th Edition rules in mind, and we never got around to tidying it up for 6th, nevermind 7th. We've not touched this for a WHILE. 2. Was a collaborative effort with a lot of people and a lot of ideas. Everything got everywhere and a lot of inconsistency beckoned. 3. We were all excited scrubs scrubbing scrubbily- I mean, it was a rush of creative energy, hard to shape properly in a way that everyone was happy with.

A full revision of these rules would be a fairly involved undertaking, and one I'm not 100% would be worth the effort (considering most if not all of the Nightmare hype dissapated a long time ago). I mean, if folks were up for it it MIGHT be an idea. Otherwise I'm quite content to let it stand as a monument to our happy, excited derping. I'll keep an eye on this to see if I'm proven wrong, which would be nice I guess.